So, which is better? The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? whats the difference in how the car will run. After swimming through the entire article, I hope you are now well aware of the 102 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. That is no accident. . It a 355. thanks in advance. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. Post Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts The 114 LSA is good for a blower or nitros motor. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. If you changed the lobe separation of a street engine from 112 degrees to 106 and didnt do anything else, adds Kaase. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. 108 Lobe Separation These are my motors specs 1979 - 347 Stroker 10:1 Compression Holley 670 Street Avenger or a Holley 650 (I have both) Roush 200 Cylinder Heads (minor head work) 1.6 Roller Rockers Shorty BBK Headers 373 Rear End 5 Speed Transmission Cross Gap Intake (Power Band 1500-6500) FlowMaster Dual Exhaust (of course no Cats) MSD 6Al 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The engine has AFR heads, Crane rockers, a TCI balancer, a Scat Rotating assembly with Mahle pistons, an Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap intake, an MSD ignition, and an Aeromotive fuel system. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. Thanks for the replies, particularly that link Marc, very informative. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. LSA is a result of valve timing events. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. But, you may find a lobe wider than a 120-degree angle in any car engine.But, I must let you know that those are customized car engines prepared for any special purpose, such as racing, drag racing, off-road riding, or performing stunts. My duration will be about 230 degrees. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post *If you do not have enough vacuum, you can in some cases install a vacuum canister or reservoir, which works by storing the peak vacuum in the reservoir. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. Looking at 108vs. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? I'm surprized at these questions as well as some of the replies. " Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. 108 versus 110 will drive the power band down. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. Required fields are marked *. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. Post Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. Thanks. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) Enter lobe separation angle. . And better gas mileage. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. Has anybody experienced it/ tried it? Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. I have Crane hydraulic link bar style roller lifters, so I dont have to use the spider style. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. . On the cranking. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. thanks. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. Now here is where it gets tricky. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. Is There a Sequence? In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. So, without wasting any moment, lets find out the answer. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. 238/248 duration, 300/310 adv. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. such as 290 @.050? ditto with the above. Realize what the engine is going in, however, as you may not be able to use the wildest cam out there. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. I know a little about cams. I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. After consulting with many experts, you are still in confusion between 106 and 110- lobe separation angles. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. Usually, this separation angle ranges from 95-degree to 120-degree. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. L'auteur prsente une nouvelle contribution de floristique nord-africaine consacre la flore du massif du Rif et des rgions du nord du Maroc, dans le cadre gographique prdfini par le Catalogue des Plantes vasculaires du Nord du Maroc de Valds et al. If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. Bad idea in my view. FWIW. We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. Call for details with your specific combination. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. The SAME can be said. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. by Mr. P. Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:36 pm, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited, General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. All rights reserved. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration?

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